False fastest BB ever claims on Beltchecker?
1 year(s) ago • 3585 views • 50 replies
"You avoided my questions. Will you please answer them? Plus you too know that one of the central ideas behind Beltchecker is to remove moneygrab payments as part of the degree criteria. An IBJJF registered black belt can be lifted as evidence but not having paid IBJJF:s moneygrab fees and thus not being listed with them is not proof that someone does not hold a degree (but they should of course then submit other evidence). Though you might be thinking of Beltchecker as a social experiment along the lines of those clickbait youtube shorts made with unbeknown subjects giving you voyeuristic satisfaction and amusement watching their reactions from an von oben perspective, I think that's quite the cynical stance and patronizing to members who actually hope for something valuable to come out of Beltchecker, besides personal entertainment. Having a degree in psychology, I'm quite aware how an actual scientific social experiment is conducted. I however don't need a degree in psychology to get the feeling you really want to divert the discussion from discussing actual facts of the matter. May I ask why? P.S. I'm still not Jonah the whale guy. See my profile pics for a pedagogic picture ;-)" Christian himself stated that Beltchecker was a social experiment. You may have missed that. Ask him Congrats on your psychology degree. No interest in diverting the discussion and the facts are absolutely interesting when you post them but as I said he is still a certified black belt with the IBJJF and your investigation changes nothing. I do not have to answer any of your questions, that is the beauty of beltchecker and the world at large as you have no authority in any regard. Enjoy the site in your manner but do not expect me or others to do the same unless we choose to. Continue to check belts and post all your findings but please stay in your lane Sir. |
"Christian himself stated that Beltchecker was a social experiment. You may have missed that." I'm quite sure Christian did not intend it to be interpreted as Beltchecker first and foremost being constructed to be an actual scientific social experiment. Do you wish to elaborate on your intended contributions to the discussions in this thread by writing "The subjects never realize they are being observed. The obersvations can be both informative and entertaining to the researchers"? I'm quite used to seeing psychological theories and models being used very loosely and without much actual understanding by people thinking they thus invalidate the arguments of and put themselves in an elevated position over those they don't agree with. It might of course not have been your intention and you are of course free not to answer what your actual intention was. It has been noted that you will not be swayed by the arguments of others in how you vote, which is well within your rights. We can leave it at that. If feel you don't want to contribute to the discussion, can we please return to the actual subject of the thread? |
My question is how does a "non ranked" person register to compete in the black belt division in the IBJJF Mundial? Let alone the absolute division against Ricardo Liborio. Was is common for non ranked people to do that and was it even permitted. 1996 was a long time ago and it was kind of wild west in that time. It may have been possible but in todays tourneys I don't think it is permissable. |
"Was is common for non ranked people to do that and was it even permitted. 1996 was a long time ago and it was kind of wild west in that time. It may have been possible but in todays tourneys I don't think it is permissable." Now we're getting to interesting questions! Previously in the thread, I have links to several of Remcos own accounts of the event and yes, it was the wild west, both in BJJ and MMA. In the first CBJJ (=same organization as was behind the worlds in 1996) co-arranged European championship in 1998, everyone competed in the same division as the visiting Brazilian black belts in the equivalent of absolute but with a 73kg lower weight limit. Quite safe to say Remco would have made the cut there as well. Also, don't forget that Brazilians like a good show. Why waste a 120kg exotic European UFC veteran in the white belt division? Also regarding previous judo and UFC experience, still today, judo black belts and/or those who have fought MMA professionally are in many competitions allowed to compete with higher belts than what they have actually been promoted to. |
Interesting article about Remco's split from Gracie Barra. 14 Years is a long time to go undetected as a "Fake" from arguably the biggest team in the world and the leaders of the IBJJF. Maybe I suffer from cognitive dissonance or maybe I pause before pickng up my pitchfork and torch with the rest of the villagers. Either way time will tell and I would have no choice than to pull my vote. Until then I sit and wait. https://www.bjjee.com/bjj[...]ly-values/ (Edited 1 year(s) ago) |
"Interesting article about Remco's split from Gracie Barra. 14 Years is a long time to go undetected as a 'Fake' from arguably the biggest team in the world and the leaders of the IBJJF." In the article you linked to, from 2017, he had three stripes on his belt, which is totally legit after being promoted by Draculino in 2007. With IBJJF, he's only registered as a 2:nd degree BB (usual BS that they only count years with hefty payments. But should have no problem getting a Beltchecker verification, without disputes, for a 4:th degree BB. Trying to overtake the role of first European that will reach coral belt, that's the fake part and that started only earlier this year. |
"Curious that nobody from Netherlands has chipped in yet. I bet every oldschooler there knows whether the black belt is from 1996 or 2007." Hi, Random Dutch guy here. This is going on memory alone. So all mistakes are mine. Remco started BJJ in the Netherlands. Before the UFC, he'd met a few old school BJJ instructors through the "jiu-jitsu fighting system" competition network that was quite popular here in Europe, if I recall correctly. And then he fought Royce, and the rest is history. He brought the first Brazilians over to teach seminars. He taught pretty much ALL the first generation Dutch BJJ black belts. I'm not sure he gave a shit about belts, or if he even had a BJJ belt at the time. He might have just used his judo and jj fighting system as a base, but with the BJJ mindset. But, as it happens, humans are humans, and will have conflict. A lot of his former students left to start to do their own thing, and associate with other instructors (Rickson, Cadu Francis, Fernando Yamasaki, and later Augusto Ferrari come to mind). I'm of the generation after those guys, I started BJJ in the US in 2000, and got with my current Brazilian instructor in Amsterdam around 2005. In any case, a bunch of Remco's former students got promoted to black belt before he did. Remco did compete in the black belt division against Liborio, but he was unranked in BJJ at the time. He got invited by the Federation, out of respect. Remember, Yuki Nakai (another LEGEND) got invited to compete at all the early Mundials and had no formal BJJ instructor, ever. In Nakai's case, the Federation signed off on all his belts. This was another time my dudes.. I recall Remco got his last few belts from Draculino, including black. And that was probably around 2007. I don't know who gave him the first belts. It wouldn't suprise me, if he was promoted straight to purple belt. Again, this was not uncommon in those days. Heck, Flavio Behring once promoted a few Belgian guys straight to black belt. I'll tell you this. Remco is a legend and the godfather of Dutch BJJ. By all accounts, he's a super passionate teacher, and quite an excentric human being. Even after the UFC he fought NHB cage matches in Europe, headbutts and all. Everyone who trains BJJ in this country has massive respect for him - friend or foe. For all he's done for the sport. So, his promotion dates might be off, but we know what the deal is. That's why my vote stands. (Edited 1 year(s) ago) |
"I was referring to Yuki Nakai" Yuki too seems to have gotten his BB years later, as he competed in CBJJ competitions later as a purple and brown belt. See https://www.bjjheroes.com[...]yuki-nakai Nakai competed in the 1996 worlds? Here, it is claimed it was in 1997 that he participated in his first BJJ tournament, the Gracie Honolulu Open hosted by Relson Gracie. https://www.bjjee.com/bjj[...]judo-team/ |
"Everyone who trains BJJ in this country has massive respect for him - friend or foe. For all he's done for the sport. So, his promotion dates might be off, but we know what the deal is. That's why my vote stands." I don't think anybody's debating his legacy or his legitimacy. The issue at hand is his promotion dates. If he really, actually got promoted to black belt in 2007, then what's the issue with just changing the dates? How does that make him any less legit? If anything, he's losing some of his credibility in the eyes of many of us, including myself, by continuing to maintain the narrative that he was promoted in 1996 when he obviously wasn't promoted in 1996. I don't understand this logic: "This guy is a legend, so anything he says shouldn't be questioned". |
"I was referring to Yuki Nakai" Still, this would come into conflict with Johan's claim that he had reached out to CBJJ/IBJJF, asking them if they made any brown (or whatever)-to-black belt promotions exclusively within their organization. Johan is claiming that CBJJ/IBJJF stated that they have never made any such promotions. Were you referring to a different federation? If not, maybe some further investigations might be necessary from Inspector Jonah. |
"Still, this would come into conflict with Johan's claim that he had reached out to CBJJ/IBJJF, asking them if they made any brown (or whatever)-to-black belt promotions exclusively within their organization. Johan is claiming that CBJJ/IBJJF stated that they have never made any such promotions. Were you referring to a different federation? If not, maybe some further investigations might be necessary from Inspector Jonah." Carlos Gracie Jr. signed off on Nakai, as the head of the org. Nakai never trained with the man. Also, they might not feel the need to provide a detailed explanation to some random Swedish guy on the internet. No offense. |
"So, his promotion dates might be off, but we know what the deal is. That's why my vote stands." So Remco is lying about his promotion history, according to your knowledge. Saying "his promotion dates might be off" is an understatement, to say the least. I respect what Remco has done for the sport, but trying to make the BJJ community believe you got your black belt 11 years earlier than you really did because you feel you should have gotten your black belt long before your students did, that's just silly! I too have had old students promoted to black before I was and I competed in the first CBJJ co-arranged European championship in 1998, where black belts and white belt competed in the same class. Still not going to claim I got my black belt in 1998 any time soon. I really did not deserve one in 1998 and, legend or not, Remco did not deserve one in 1996. If Remco thinks he's deserving of more than 4:th degree BB and wants the Beltchecker BJJ community to verify a 6:th degree, he really shouldn't start of being untruthful but should instead be open with his concerns, motivations and history. Would I then be voting for a 6:th degree for Remco? No way. He's far from alone in Europe in having late and spread out promotions in the 90:s and early 00:s because of logistical reasons and I really don't think we should go into retroactive promotions just to move dates so no one is officially promoted after any of their old students were. Also, can anyone point to actual evidence that Remco had BJJ black belt skills in 1996? Judging by old (previously linked) interviews, he really didn't seem to think so himself. He didn't win a single BJJ match before 2005, as far as I've been able to find (please correct me if I've missed something) and looking at the Liborio-fight in 1996, he did really do well defensively for a white belt and it is really cool of him even to be there, but technically, I would think a lot of wrestlers and judokas (even with lighter weight than Remcos 50% size advantage on Liborio) would have done good defensively as well, without them being on the BJJ level I'd myself promote even to blue belt without ensuring they really have good knowledge of wider BJJ basics. What do you yourself think? CBJJ might not bother much with a random Swede on the internet, but if Remco has no records of it happening, CBJJ denies it (not bothering or not) and Remco himself has later both competed as a purple belt and stated he really had no BJJ belt as late as 2001, I really don't think I should be the one chasing even more evidence. Has Remco or anyone else actually submitted even the tiniest bit of evidence in support of the 1996 black belt timeline? |
Moneyberg was slow. If you want to be a really fast BB and pay for it, why not pay for beating the claimed old record 2 years 1 month? Obviously, it doesn't even matter to most that said promoting instructor denies having promoted to BB that fast (or ever), so why not also beat the current supposed record 1 year 6 months (American olympic judoka Travis Stevens) by just making up a claim of perhaps nine months or so? There's a money (and effort) saving tip for you all! |
