"The Proposal: We need a distinction on the profile for degrees:
Type A: Time Served (The Timer)
Type B: Community Verified (Evidence uploaded + Community Vote)"
This already exists. Anyone who prefer to have their time-based black belt degrees verified by the community, can just choose "I was promoted by someone" and then write "Time served" in the promoter field. That will trigger community verification for the degree.
"Bobby,
Fair play. I will stop calling it "your system." 🤝
To be clear: I don't care about the IBJJF. I care about legitimate promotion.
1. The "Friction" Factor My point about Stan Schmidt wasn't about standardized testing. It was about friction. He had to fly to Japan and face the masters. The rank had value because it was hard-fought. A SQL script running at midnight is the exact opposite of hard-fought.
2. My Personal Stance I am currently eligible for my 1st degree right now. I could click the button today. I won't. I will wait until my instructor—who I do not pay—decides I am ready and bestows it. That is the only way it carries weight.
3. The Solution: The Ronin Protocol Since you offered to back me, let's solve Patrick’s "Toxic Gym" issue without resorting to participation trophies.
The Proposal: We need a distinction on the profile for degrees:
Type A: Time Served (The Timer)
Type B: Community Verified (Evidence uploaded + Community Vote)
This allows "Ronins" (orphaned students) to be verified by the crowd, rather than just a clock.
How do we move this from a forum debate to a formal feature request?
Respect, Dalan"
I feel like we're going around in circles a little bit here. I think if you feel that receiving a stripe on your black belt for "time served" by a human, as opposed to a computer program, is the only legitimate way to progress in rank, then you should, by all means go and downvote everyone on here who has accepted this type of promotion.
If you don't think the IBJJF's computer time-based promotions are legit for similar reasons, then you should definitely go and downvote everyone who has accepted this type of promotion.
Right now, as Christian pointed out, we already have these two types of promotions, it's just that up until now, everyone seems fine with both types. If you don't like it, then downvoting is a very powerful way of making your opinion known.
Like I said, I'm completely fine with time-based promotions as it seems like it's the only consistent uniform standard in our art, which is different than other martial arts. It seems like you're not really advocating for any other standards other than the degree should be awarded by another human who received their black belt at some point in time (minimum 3 years?) before you did.
Just or of curiosity, what do you do if your instructor forgets your belt's anniversary? Do you remind him? After all, we're "not allowed" to ask for rank. I suppose if you're not planning on promoting anyone to bb yourself, maybe it doesn't matter. I know this is a different question entirely. Just throwing it out there for a little variety.
In an attempt to organize your argument in a more concise manner (correct me if I'm wrong) you are saying:
Current beltchecker system: participant has the option of claiming "time served" and is automatically approved. One would have to downvote this promotion if they don't agree.
Proposed (Ronin) system: participant can claim "time served," but it triggers a need to be voted on again, just like if you claim your degree from another human via the current system on beltchecker.
While I'm not an administrator of this site, it seems like that would be a fairly easy modification, all things considered. However, it seems like there would need to be a REASON to make this modification, because as of now, literally none of the thousands of participants on this site have contested it. From what I can tell, you're the first!
Not to go around again to the beginning of the circle, but I think if you began a movement of downvoting "time served" promotions, and enough people agreed with you, this would give the administrators a REASON to change the current system.
Then you and Johan can commiserate the joys of the aftermath of downvotes together.
"Bobby,
Fair play. I will stop calling it "your system." 🤝
To be clear: I don't care about the IBJJF. I care about legitimate promotion.
1. The "Friction" Factor My point about Stan Schmidt wasn't about standardized testing. It was about friction. He had to fly to Japan and face the masters. The rank had value because it was hard-fought. A SQL script running at midnight is the exact opposite of hard-fought.
2. My Personal Stance I am currently eligible for my 1st degree right now. I could click the button today. I won't. I will wait until my instructor—who I do not pay—decides I am ready and bestows it. That is the only way it carries weight.
3. The Solution: The Ronin Protocol Since you offered to back me, let's solve Patrick’s "Toxic Gym" issue without resorting to participation trophies.
The Proposal: We need a distinction on the profile for degrees:
Type A: Time Served (The Timer)
Type B: Community Verified (Evidence uploaded + Community Vote)
This allows "Ronins" (orphaned students) to be verified by the crowd, rather than just a clock.
How do we move this from a forum debate to a formal feature request?
Respect, Dalan"
Some simple solutions you might find less “toxic”.
1. Come to the realization that outside of centralized testing, there will always be an arbitrary nature to promotion. Too fast, too slow, sandbagging, etc.
2. Don’t use IBJJF or Belt Checker. Whether you’re getting promoted due to crossing the palm of your sensei, or your “loyalty” is all the payment needed, whining about people doing it differently than you won’t fix anything.
3. Don’t worry about tape on my belt. I’m sure after the time requirement is satisfied, I pass a referee test, I submit my First Aid/CPR, my academy stays registered, I have approved the rank of teammates, and everything in between that my first degree will mean as much to me via a certificate from Carlos as someone putting finger tape on my belt.
Let’s REALLY look at what the point of contention is- a loosely agreed upon ranking system inspired by a sash worn by Japanese kids swimming denoting “trained” vs “untrained” & a degree system from the board game Go. The belt doesn’t get any blacker and there are several world champions in their respective styles that don’t pursue rank, they are just as much a “master” (if not more) as the belt chaser.
And Christian, your defence of "IBJJF does it too" is actually my point. BJJ existed for decades before the IBJJF was founded in 1994. The Gracies were promoting students long before Carlos Jr created his money machine. So when you benchmark your system against theirs and say "we're just as good but free" - you're not innovating. You're just copying a broken system and removing the price tag. That's not disruption; that's a race to the bottom. If your standard for legitimacy is "slightly less corrupt than the IBJJF," you've already lost. The goal shouldn't be to match their low bar - it should be to restore what promotion meant before organisations turned it into a revenue stream.
"Hi guys, In my opinion, the current BeltChecker system, once you hit Black Belt, has zero integrity and there are serious double standards. If I click a button that the website offers me, I get my promotion straight away, no questions asked. If my actual instructor promotes me with photographic evidence, I have to go through an entire verification process. That does not make sense. This crucial difference could make someone who's never trained for the last 10 years a 3rd degree black belt by just clicking a button. Bobby, you asked what happens if my instructor forgets my anniversary. The answer: nothing. I don't remind him. I don't ask. If he never promotes me again, I'm still a black belt under Rodney King, trained in South Africa's original BJJ lineage under Rigan Machado. For me that's enough. I REALLY don't need another stripe on my belt unless it was actually bestowed upon me by Rodney - my coach. And I'm not alone - I know several black belts under Rodney who could have clicked that button years ago, or could have easily changed lineage to get promoted elsewhere. They didn't. They chose to wait. That's integrity. Some of the guys I know who've clicked the button have told me that they really don't care and would take all the stripes off their belt because they actually don't matter - but yet they still put the stripe on their belt. So it obviously does matter to them. I'm an Old Edwardian - King Edward VII School, Johannesburg (you might have to look that up) and some of the world's most famous sportsmen, politicians, businessmen and artists walked those exact same halls. We're talking about golfing legend Gary Player, Springbok great Bryan Habana, billionaire Sir Donald Gordon, and—crucially for the point I'm making—the father of South African Karate himself, Stan Schmidt. We have a cenotaph in the quad honouring Old Boys who died in two World Wars. When Old Edwardians return, they walk past that memorial in their blazers, watched by the next generation. Nobody clicks a button to earn that. The community recognises you - or it doesn't. That's what shaped my view: legacy is earned, witnessed, and bestowed. Not scheduled. You've chosen a different path. I respect your right to walk it. I just won't be walking it with you. I'll keep training. My instructor will promote me when he decides I'm ready. No timer required. Maybe I'll start beltclicker.com - at least the name would be honest. Thanks for the debate. Dalan"
Not adhering to IBJJF standards but to more-than standards would be very much accepted by the wider community!
The current belt system is from 1967 and CBJJ was founded in 1993 (some sources say 1994) and was (is?) in many ways the same entity as IBJJF, which was officially founded in 2002 (with same belt criteria as CBJJ).
So from 1967, that's 26 years prior to CBJJ/IBJJF and the most recent 34 years or so with the CBJJ/IBJJF criteria (including time served for BB degrees) being very dominant, also outside of CBJJ/IBJJF. Except for Craig Kukuk, I don't thing there's a single non-brazilian promoted to BB before CBJJ was formed. So it's really not very strange that the time-served-criteria of CBJJ/IBJJF has stuck since. But I have at several occasions argued that the CBJJ/IBJJF criteria, not least 2:nd degree BB to promote someone else to BB, really isn't more strict than previous standards, where it seems to have been only very senior BB:s who promoted (not least judging by the very limited number of BB:s from the 80:s or earlier which can be seen in the lineages we see today - does anyone's lineage, tracked back to 80:s or earlier, show a junior black belt?). So arguments for using less-than criteria while pointing to the time before CBJJ/IBJJF, I think are weak. But more-than criteria is another matter, while difficult to change practices in the wider community.
Also, evaluating merits for BB degrees has power relations which the time-based system (at least through Beltchecker) does not. So we have a trade off there and we unfortunately see quite a lot of falling outs in BJJ, even between BB and 2:nd degree. At times connected to wanting to lock someone in and milk money. And even as a 3:rd degree BB, it's challenging enough to do evaluations for BB with no degrees. What criteria would I have for 1:st, 2:nd and 3:rd? Also, once I've got someone up to BB, it's long over due for them to have found their own specialized game which they can teach and develop me in! If there aren't areas in which they exceed me by then, I have failed.
With "ronin BB:s", without their own instructor, I can see them wanting to show the two stripes on promotion photos with students. But above that (and even the first two stripes) feels like a weird thing to put yourself on the belt, whether through Beltchecker or IBJJF. Even if I don't think I've ever down voted it, I respect more the integrity of not striping your own belt (claiming the stripes on beltchecker to increase vote power but not putting the physical stripes on is another matter). A stripe with a senior BB:s name connected to it looks much better, even if it's just a friend BB who did the honors for you. So I really don't find it odd that having a name attached to the promotion requires a re-verification while nameless time-served-stripes does not. Also, not all names are equal. Being promoted to a BB degree by someone with an unverifiable lineage compared to someone with excellent and easily verifiable lineage compared to someone with a name which we all recognize. Where in the latter case, I might even want to see evidence if none of the previous degrees was from that well known person.
Would be interesting to hear more about what you have all found regarding how promotions worked 1967-1992!
You're still a black belt under Rodney King regardless of if you get stripes afterward or not, or if you receive the stripes from a person or a robot.
I'm not sure why you're not downvoting all these non-integrity-having profiles right now. Maybe all those famous people you listed off can help your inner strength?
" Ultimately, after your 2nd degree, stripes begin to be really irrelevant. Like counting rings on a tree to see how old it is, but that's about it."
Except for one thing. The objective of every leader should be to nurture more leaders. If stripes after 2nd degree are irrelevant then we have no way to promote others to 2nd degree other than the infamous 'time served' method. If one's goal is simply to grow more followers there is no need to promote them to a level where they can promote their own black belts, but if the goal is to broaden the sport you need an avenue to get them to 2nd degree which means you should have a promoting instructor with a higher degree although I don't recall that being explicitly stated in the IBJJF rules. I think their only criteria is to keep paying them money for the prescribed period of time.
"I think their only criteria is to keep paying them money for the prescribed period of time."
There's (slightly) more to it than that. I've written about this before, in another thread I think.
With the IBJJF's certification program, at least as I understand it, you are promoted through their organization, and it's approved by Carlos Gracie Jr., who is the person who signs your certificate.
I know there was a thread earlier where someone asked if gyms, as opposed to humans, can promote people. I wonder how people feel about organizations promoting people?
Anyway, this is almost exactly the same process I have to go through for my Judo rankings: I provide documentation for my next belt (matches I've won, kata clinics I've attended, classes I teach, etc.) and then it's approved by USA Judo, then they send me a certificate signed by whoever is in charge of that department (usually a high-profile, high-ranking judoka).
The big differences between the two is, with USA Judo, my money goes toward promoting judo, supporting team USA athletes, etc, whereas with IBJJF, my money just goes into Carlinhos' pockets. The other difference is that with Judo, I actually have to be engaging in some Judo-related activities.
"There's (slightly) more to it than that. I've written about this before, in another thread I think. With the IBJJF's certification program, at least as I understand it, you are promoted through their organization, and it's approved by Carlos Gracie Jr., who is the person who signs your certificate. I know there was a thread earlier where someone asked if gyms, as opposed to humans, can promote people. I wonder how people feel about organizations promoting people? Anyway, this is almost exactly the same process I have to go through for my Judo rankings: I provide documentation for my next belt (matches I've won, kata clinics I've attended, classes I teach, etc.) and then it's approved by USA Judo, then they send me a certificate signed by whoever is in charge of that department (usually a high-profile, high-ranking judoka). The big differences between the two is, with USA Judo, my money goes toward promoting judo, supporting team USA athletes, etc, whereas with IBJJF, my money just goes into Carlinhos' pockets. The other difference is that with Judo, I actually have to be engaging in some Judo-related activities."
That's the process; I'm talking about the criteria. The rule book literally says serve your time and prove activity by at least one of the following methods. The first method listed is to keep paying them money.
"That's the process; I'm talking about the criteria. The rule book literally says serve your time and prove activity by at least one of the following methods. The first method listed is to keep paying them money."
Yes, I posted on this earlier in this thread (post #6): all 7 ways of "proving activity" involve the IBJJF getting paid.
"Except for one thing. The objective of every leader should be to nurture more leaders. If stripes after 2nd degree are irrelevant then we have no way to promote others to 2nd degree other than the infamous 'time served' method. If one's goal is simply to grow more followers there is no need to promote them to a level where they can promote their own black belts, but if the goal is to broaden the sport you need an avenue to get them to 2nd degree which means you should have a promoting instructor with a higher degree although I don't recall that being explicitly stated in the IBJJF rules. I think their only criteria is to keep paying them money for the prescribed period of time."
How are you able to promote 9:th degrees with no 10:th degrees? And when all 9:th degrees promoted by Helio are dead, who should promote 8:th degrees? And so on.
Preferably, you have an instructor much senior to you who can award the degrees, but at least for the coral belts and red belt, it seems like common practice that same can promote to same. My own instructor has done it, so I have no problem verifying those promotions to BB degrees. And always "worth more" than a no name attached time served promotion from Beltchecker, IBJJF, your team or whatever.
"How are you able to promote 9:th degrees with no 10:th degrees? And when all 9:th degrees promoted by Helio are dead, who should promote 8:th degrees? And so on.
Preferably, you have an instructor much senior to you who can award the degrees, but at least for the coral belts and red belt, it seems like common practice that same can promote to same. My own instructor has done it, so I have no problem verifying those promotions to BB degrees. And always "worth more" than a no name attached time served promotion from Beltchecker, IBJJF, your team or whatever."
Eventually this does top out.
Who promotes people to 10th Dan at the Kodokan?…other 10th dans.
All the bells, whistles, and candy cane belts don’t make it anything more than Jiu Jitsu.
Obviously we all want Jiu Jitsu to remain ideal and to have a touch of elitism. Ultimately, we all need to attain black belt through someone legitimate (does their dan grade matter?..that’s another discussion). But everything after black is very much decorative or done so with the foresight of needing specific dan grades for promoting others, coaching etc.
In a perfect world, there would be grading boards that don’t charge you exorbitant fees to test, and there would be a written in stone standard (à la Judo). But we don’t live in that world, and we will take different paths to the same route.
"In a perfect world, there would be grading boards that don’t charge you exorbitant fees to test, and there would be a written in stone standard (à la Judo). But we don’t live in that world, and we will take different paths to the same route."
There are upsides and downsides to this, but I think our best shot at evolving into the most impartial version of something like this is through this site.
"How are you able to promote 9:th degrees with no 10:th degrees? And when all 9:th degrees promoted by Helio are dead, who should promote 8:th degrees? And so on. Preferably, you have an instructor much senior to you who can award the degrees, but at least for the coral belts and red belt, it seems like common practice that same can promote to same. My own instructor has done it, so I have no problem verifying those promotions to BB degrees. And always "worth more" than a no name attached time served promotion from Beltchecker, IBJJF, your team or whatever."
Rules are written because they are needed by the majority, not because they are needed by the 0.1%. There comes a point that you just take care of business and don't worry about it.
