Post Your Lineage
6 year(s) ago • 50608 views • 355 replies
Curious to see what everyone's lineage looks like. Also feel free to post your opinions on the importance or lack there of, of bjj lineage. How many steps from the source are you?! I am a blue belt under Allan Goes and my lineage is: Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie > Carlson Gracie > Allan Goes > Me (Edited 5 year(s) ago) |
I always felt the whole lineage praising culture was kind of weird. If I take my own students, some of them are super talented and medal at big tournaments. Some of them are blue belts for 10 years and lose first match in every single competition. Some of them copy my game to the detail, some go their own way and develop completely distinct style. I dont see why they should get anything out of saying I’m their lineage, when so many other factors play in. An important point to consider of course, is that this is kind of unique to jiu jitsu. Why don’t golfers, tennis players, table tennis players, cyclists and marathon runner talk about their lineage like jiu jitsu people do? It’s weird. Just weird. |
"I always felt the whole lineage praising culture was kind of weird. If I take my own students, some of them are super talented and medal at big tournaments. Some of them are blue belts for 10 years and lose first match in every single competition. Some of them copy my game to the detail, some go their own way and develop completely distinct style. I dont see why they should get anything out of saying I’m their lineage, when so many other factors play in. An important point to consider of course, is that this is kind of unique to jiu jitsu. Why don’t golfers, tennis players, table tennis players, cyclists and marathon runner talk about their lineage like jiu jitsu people do? It’s weird. Just weird." I agree with you to an extent, but I also found myself seeking out a Brazilian born black belt. Now that I've been around longer, I dont care as much about lineage and more about their proficiency in bjj, capacity to relay what they have learned and ability to teach. However, I still feel lineage can be a predictor of style. Maybe your way of teaching lends to the variety of students you have versus another coach who may be culturally and stylistically more strict? I'm only 3 years in, but I've trained at a handful of academies that all come from different lineages and they all seem to have a slightly different way of training, plus a vastly different culture. |
I like the Idea of "Lineage" - not because I think everyone needs to copy their teacher; on the contrary. If my students turn out to be "copys" of myself, I would not consider myself a good teacher because I taught them MY moves instead of teaching them to develop THEIR game and mainly the Understanding of the Art... I like the Idea of lineage because for once, I like "history". Also, I like the option that it gives one a perspective on how the art one studies developed through the generations (looking at each teacher in succession and what their strong points were). Whatever I study an art I often try to get "as close to the source" of said art for my onw studying - not because I believe it is "better" (!) - oftentimes the new generations develop awesome methods that the founders could not even imagine - but I simply like to see how things were "in the beginning" to be able to put those changes into perspective and understand those developments that changed the Art at one point or another. I also followed this "rule" when I studied Traditional Chinese Medicine (I went to china to study there instead of attending the commonly offered courses offered here in Germany) or Osteopathy (wich I studied mainly with Osteopathic Professors from the US - where Osteopathy originated - instead of taking "germanized" courses…)… Is lineage "important" when it comes to ability? NO - there are plenty of experts / masters / champions who have no real lineage; and there are those with a great lineage who still suck at what they do... But I think we should not forget that BJJ is still one of the Few arts where direct Student-Teacher Lineage is one of the Main factors in "verification" of a persons validity of Rank! If you can not produce a Promotion by a recognized Blackbelt, it does not matter how great you are on the mats… and that Black Belt of course had to come from anothe valid Black Belt etc etc - s in the end, EVERYONE in the comunity can andshould be able to trace their Lineage to one of the founding roots in Brazil. If they cant, their rank is automatically "questionable". And I like it that way! It makes us different from other Arts or Systems where you simply get Ranked at a Grade-Testing by some random Guy with a Licence for Grading from a certain Association. In the attaced file I tried to recreate my Lineages to the Kodokan through Judo and BJJ - and I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out my Judo-Lineages from when I started Judo. Unfortunately, my early teachers all end up in a big Association-Blackbox from where they recieved their rank; with no further documentation on who THEY actually learned from. Would knowing that make me a better practitioner? No; it would not. But I would love to be able to connect those dots just a clearly as I ca in my BJJ Lineage (and my current Judo Lineage - wich I can trace all the way to Kano as well. Anyways, just some Random thoughts... My main Kodokan Lineage/s are: In BJJ 1) Kanō Jigorō > Tomita Tsunejirō -> Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie Sr. > Reyson Gracie > Mario Stapel > Philipp Wolf (me) 2) Kanō Jigorō > Tomita Tsunejirō -> Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie Sr. > Helio Gracie > Robin Gracie > Mario Stapel > Philipp Wolf (me) 3) Kanō Jigorō > Tomita Tsunejirō -> Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie Sr. > Helio Gracie > Pedro Hemetério de Araújo > Franco Vacirca > Mario Stapel > Philipp Wolf (me) And my main Judo Lineage: Kanō Jigorō > Fukushima Seizaburō > Ushijima Tatsukuma > Hirano Tokio > Frank Thiele > Thomas Kohlrausch > Philipp Wolf (me) See also my Lineage-Poster (a Work in Progress): https://bjj-neustadt.weeb[...]020_02.jpg  (Edited 6 year(s) ago) |
Linage say nothing about who you are and how you are as long as you are not a part of a cult. We are all free and we have all our own style (it is a must if it is going to be effective for us and suited for our mind and body). So linage is something that some are obsessed with both in sport and in life. Were do i come from? Who am I? Look in the mirror!!! You are not your past and your linage. Neither in life or in sport. You are what you want you are right now and what you are will change as longe as you live depending on what input you get. Also if you are smart you get knowledge from everywhere and anyone nomatter what colour of belt or what they do. Absorb what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is specifically your own. Use no way as way and have no limitation as limitation. We are one world, one people and one family (DNA and genetics now can prove) nomatter differnces or similarities. But please don´t limit yourself and your developement by not getting knowledge and experience from everywhere in life. Knowledge and experience that you can use i BJJ and in the rest of you life. |
As weird as it may seem, here it is. Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie Sr. > Helio Gracie > Royler Gracie - David Adiv > Me Hey Christian, Speaking of lineage, don't most Danes maintain records of their family lineages all the way back to the middle ages and further? At least thats what my other Danish friends tell me. I can see how it is viewed as strange for sports and martial arts but do you have that same opinion on family bloodlines? Asking for a viking friend. :-) |
Since I'm a martial arts history nerd I like this kind of stuff. BJJ Lineages Jigoro Kano -> Misuyo Maeda -> Carlos Gracie Sr. -> Helio Gracie -> Rickson Gracie -> Pedro Sauer -> me Jigoro Kano -> Yokoyama Sakujiro -> Hajime Isogai -> Takeo Yano -> Agatangelo Braga -> Ivan Gomes -> Jose Gomes -> Gustavo Cortes -> me Judo Lineage Jigoro Kano -> Henry Seishiro Okazaki -> Bud Estes -> Ken Reginniter -> Steve Scott -> Derrick Darling -> Me Luta Livre Lineages Jigoro Kano -> Yokoyama Sakujiro -> Hajime Isogai -> Takeo Yano -> Euclides Hatem -> Fausto Brunocilla -> Carlos Brunocilla -> Eugenio Tadeu -> Daniel D'Dane -> Andreas Schmidt -> Ty Pilgrim -> Derrick Darling -> me Orlando Americo Da Silva -> Euclides Hatem -> Same as above from here (Edited 6 year(s) ago) |
Lineage 1: M. Maeda > Carlos Gracie > Helio G. > Rolls G. > R. Cavalcanti > Octávio Couto > Felipe Mota > Me Lineage 2: M. Maeda > Carlos Gracie > Helio G. > Alvaro Barreto > Sylvio Behring > Vini Campelo > Felipe Mota > Me As far as i know., The list is copy paste from Felipe`s Bjj heros profile. Ive only met and trained under Felipe, and once met Vini Campelo under a seminar the weekend i got my blue belt (Edited 6 year(s) ago) |
"Connor MacLeod -> Clan MacLeod." "There can only be one!" Juan Sanchez-Villalobos Ramirez For your viewing pleasure. https://www.youtube.com/w[...]tN7yppQzUc |
If you’ve had different instructors promote you, do you still count them in your lineage or does the highest rank override the lower ranks? Brown: Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie > Carlson Gracie > Rey Diogo > me Purple: Maeda > Carlos Sr. > Carlos Jr. > Yuki Nakai > Satoshi Koutani > me Blue: Maeda > Carlos Sr. > Helio Gracie > Royler Gracie > Eduardo Rocha > me |
"If you’ve had different instructors promote you, do you still count them in your lineage or does the highest rank override the lower ranks? " This is interesting and i've always wondered what the answer is. As people in this modern era tend to train under several different people throughout their journey. I have decided my lineage correlates to that of the route to Black belt. In this case my lineage is: Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie Sr. > Helio Gracie > Carlos Gracie Junior > Eduardo Carriello > Wayne Johnson I split from Professor Carriello after receiving my black belt and I now train under fightsports and professor Cybourg. It is here I expect to get my 1st degree. I wouldn't then consider my lineage to change to; Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie Sr> Carlson Gracie > Francisco Albuquerque > Roberto Abreu > Wayne Johnson I would be interested to hear what others think though. |
"This is interesting and i've always wondered what the answer is. As people in this modern era tend to train under several different people throughout their journey. I have decided my lineage correlates to that of the route to Black belt. In this case my lineage is: Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie Sr. > Helio Gracie > Carlos Gracie Junior > Eduardo Carriello > Wayne Johnson I split from Professor Carriello after receiving my black belt and I now train under fightsports and professor Cybourg. It is here I expect to get my 1st degree. I wouldn't then consider my lineage to change to; Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie Sr> Carlson Gracie > Francisco Albuquerque > Roberto Abreu > Wayne Johnson I would be interested to hear what others think though." I would say yes. Why not include them? Especially if they had an influence on your formation. |
"As weird as it may seem, here it is. Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie Sr. > Helio Gracie > Royler Gracie - David Adiv > Me Hey Christian, Speaking of lineage, don't most Danes maintain records of their family lineages all the way back to the middle ages and further? At least thats what my other Danish friends tell me. I can see how it is viewed as strange for sports and martial arts but do you have that same opinion on family bloodlines? Asking for a viking friend. :-)" No but I think they do in Iceland. Small place, don’t want to accidentally marry your cousin :D |
Lineage carryover is very questionable (so I completely agree with Christian's first post here), but I am a jiu-jitsu history nerd so I do get a kick out of this stuff. I naturally do get a ton of stuff from my primary instructor, with whom I train almost daily, and also his instructor Demian Maia, although not spending that big amount of a time in Finland overall, has been a major influence on how certain stuff has been done at our gym, especially earlier. Just an example, we've been doing Single Leg X guard for ages, but it was called "Demian Maia guard" back in the day, then "Anaconda guard" a little later (Demian introduces the position in his Science of Jiu-Jitsu dvd's which I think are from 2006 or something). Still my go-to open guard... Mitsuyo Maeda → Carlos Gracie → Helio Gracie → Rolls Gracie → Romero “Jacaré” Cavalcanti → Fabio Gurgel → Demian Maia → Sammy Hämäläinen → me |
I feel like I have a sort of interesting lineage... Anyone who has read the book "The Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin may remember him talking about his main training partner for Tai Chi Chuan Push Hands - Daniel Caulfield. This is who I trained under for the first 5 years of my jiu jitsu "career". He trained with Marcelo for a bit and then ultimately got his black belt from Ailson "Jucao"Brites. My current instructor got his black belt from Todd Brown, a former UFC fighter who fought the likes of Tim Boesch, etc. White through Purple belts- Ailson "Jucao" Brites > Daniel Caulfield Brown belt - Todd Brown > Peter Greene (Edited 6 year(s) ago) |
Blue : Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie Sr. > Helio Gracie > Carlos Gracie Junior > Mauricio Mariano > Justin Charon/Ryder Spadafore/Todd Palmer Purple: Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie > Carlson Gracie > Ricardo De La Riva > (Moacir Omena ) Tony Passos > Bob Gibson Currently training under: Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie Sr.> Helio Gracie > Rickson Gracie > Jorge Pereira > Rogerio Taborda > Joseph Bauserman/Brad Souders (Edited 6 year(s) ago) |
