"All fights go to the ground" (they clearly don't)
1 month(s) ago • 527 views • 12 replies
If everyone would've had video cameras in their pockets 40 years ago, like they do today, and we had the same overwhelming evidence that street fights are decided by punches to the head, would Jiu Jitsu have been as much of a commercial success as it is today? It's pretty interesting that we actually have a ton of data (video) on this now. And we see absolutely **minimal** grappling, groin kicks or other dangerous street fighting techniques. Human instinct is clearly to swing for the head and it's usually over whenever the first or first few punches connect. |
"If everyone would've had video cameras in their pockets 40 years ago, like they do today, and we had the same overwhelming evidence that street fights are decided by punches to the head, would Jiu Jitsu have been as much of a commercial success as it is today? It's pretty interesting that we actually have a ton of data (video) on this now. And we see absolutely **minimal** grappling, groin kicks or other dangerous street fighting techniques. Human instinct is clearly to swing for the head and it's usually over whenever the first or first few punches connect." When I train armed professionals, it is Judo, Wrestling, Open handed dirty boxing, and gun belt on, try not to die training. Sure, we do ground, but not a lot of guard pulling, nor fancy things. No time for that. Not enough peripheral vision. Not enough ability to extricate. You are wearing a gun. He / she could have buddies. When people train with gun belts with simulated firearms, and blunted knives, the adrenaline goes way up. The game gets faster, rougher, and simpler. And hitting somebody in the face, or kicking their liver never went out of style. Also, I wholehearted agree with you, in this sense, and I tell everyone, what Carlson Gracie Sr. said. Likewise, the Tueller Drill, and pea shooter fu's. |
"If everyone would've had video cameras in their pockets 40 years ago, like they do today, and we had the same overwhelming evidence that street fights are decided by punches to the head, would Jiu Jitsu have been as much of a commercial success as it is today?" I read a very interesting "scientific-adjacent" article about this a few years back. I'll link it for you here: https://www.jkdlondon.com[...]he-ground/ Definitely worth the read, and I'd be curious what others think about it. One element that wasn't discussed in the article was cultural context. For example, if you live in a culture where it's common for people to fight, for macho reasons or whatever, and these people also have experience fighting, does it go to the ground more often? This is my theory on what made bjj stand out in Brazil. Another aspect, somewhat related to culture, is gender. I read a different article (can't seem to find it now) which observed that when men fight each other, it's typically for dominance, and there are typically some ground rules involved. Women, on the other hand, have a tendency to fight to the death, so to speak. Perhaps when fighters grab hair, lose their balance and fall down, assuming there is nobody there to break it up, it might continue on the ground for longer. To answer the original question though, yes, I think BJJ would be popular. I think if you put pure BJJ against "pure" various other arts and sports, in a 1-on-1 cage match, it wins most of the time, and this is an experiment that's been replicated plenty of times and the results are attractive to people. However, we have to acknowledge that a 1-on-1 cage match is not the reality of a street fight, and there are literally thousands of potential variables at play in self-defense, most of which have nothing to do with 1-on-1 fighting. Personally I've had next to zero interest or care if it works in self-defense scenarios and am primarily interested in BJJ for fun and overall health benefits. But it is fun to hypothesize. |
"If everyone would've had video cameras in their pockets 40 years ago, like they do today, and we had the same overwhelming evidence that street fights are decided by punches to the head, would Jiu Jitsu have been as much of a commercial success as it is today? It's pretty interesting that we actually have a ton of data (video) on this now. And we see absolutely **minimal** grappling, groin kicks or other dangerous street fighting techniques. Human instinct is clearly to swing for the head and it's usually over whenever the first or first few punches connect." Sir, my observation of reality shows USA based shows that the idea of street fights being decided solely by "punches to the head" is actually quite far from the truth. When you watch these real life confrontations, you see that anger and high emotion almost always lead to someone being shoved to the ground, grabbed by their clothes, or caught in a frantic scramble. This is even backed up by the early days of MMA where we saw world class strikers lose because they had no answer for being taken to the ground. In almost every intense encounter on reality shows, the fight starts face to face and immediately transitions into a messy grapple where someone is pinned against a wall or pushed onto the pavement or bed. This is exactly where training in No-Gi Jiu Jitsu becomes a superpower because it teaches you how to navigate that physical body contact instead of just swinging wildly. Even looking at criminal behavior like robberies, the aggressor uses proximity and grabbing to intimidate their victim rather than standing back to trade punches like a boxer |
"Sir, my observation of shows like Uyajola 9/9 in RSA or Cheaters USA based shows that the idea of street fights being decided solely by "punches to the head" is actually quite far from the truth. When you watch these real life confrontations, you see that anger and high emotion almost always lead to someone being shoved to the ground, grabbed by their clothes, or caught in a frantic scramble. This is even backed up by the early days of MMA where we saw world class strikers lose because they had no answer for being taken to the ground. In almost every intense encounter on Uyajola 9/9 or Cheaters, the fight starts face to face and immediately transitions into a messy grapple where someone is pinned against a wall or pushed onto the pavement or bed. This is exactly where training in No-Gi Jiu Jitsu becomes a superpower because it teaches you how to navigate that physical body contact instead of just swinging wildly. Even looking at criminal behavior like robberies, the aggressor uses proximity and grabbing to intimidate their victim rather than standing back to trade punches like a boxer" It is true, that in a one on one scenario, a grappler using ground techniques, may have a pronounced advantage over an opponent who is not familiar with those methods. Thank you for your fine counter point, sir. I hope you are enjoying your training. |
"I read a very interesting "scientific-adjacent" article about this a few years back. I'll link it for you here: https://www.jkdlondon.com[...]he-ground/ Definitely worth the read, and I'd be curious what others think about it. One element that wasn't discussed in the article was cultural context. For example, if you live in a culture where it's common for people to fight, for macho reasons or whatever, and these people also have experience fighting, does it go to the ground more often? This is my theory on what made bjj stand out in Brazil. Another aspect, somewhat related to culture, is gender. I read a different article (can't seem to find it now) which observed that when men fight each other, it's typically for dominance, and there are typically some ground rules involved. Women, on the other hand, have a tendency to fight to the death, so to speak. Perhaps when fighters grab hair, lose their balance and fall down, assuming there is nobody there to break it up, it might continue on the ground for longer. To answer the original question though, yes, I think BJJ would be popular. I think if you put pure BJJ against "pure" various other arts and sports, in a 1-on-1 cage match, it wins most of the time, and this is an experiment that's been replicated plenty of times and the results are attractive to people. However, we have to acknowledge that a 1-on-1 cage match is not the reality of a street fight, and there are literally thousands of potential variables at play in self-defense, most of which have nothing to do with 1-on-1 fighting. Personally I've had next to zero interest or care if it works in self-defense scenarios and am primarily interested in BJJ for fun and overall health benefits. But it is fun to hypothesize." Yes, It was definitely a great marketing strategy by Rorion and Co. to claim almost all „street fights“ would go to the ground (alongside to the Gracie in action tapes and developing the UFC to proof Jiu Jitsu works). I assume what most people (including myself) back then pulled into Jiu Jitsu, was that a guy who looked like an everyday Joe, could survive and even win against stronger athletes, like Shamrock. Lots of martial athletes lacked ground grappling skills and the strikers and kickers realized, striking and kicking isn’t everything, there is clinch and ground, too (in a 1 on 1 combat sports competition). As far as I know Rorion‘s claim about most fights would end on the ground, was based on data and statistics in the context of law enforcement (old LAPD study from the mid 80s in context of use of force and control tactics… it wasn’t 90% but 62 %, when I am not wrong). From a law enforcement perspective in relation to control tactics it’s definitely very often the case, the suspect will be taken to the ground for control and cuffing procedures, especially when actively resisting, so wrestling/grappling and takedown skills definitely come in very handy in that context. So although there is a transfer to self defense, the context of Rorion’s claim was related to Use of force and control tactics in Law Enforcement and not Selfdefense on the streets. I don’t have specific data right now, but I have anecdotal experience in that field and unfortunately was attacked a few times within 25 years on duty: Swinging Punches to the head and some kind of grabbing cloth and trying to clinch and shove in combination with strikes was what I personally had to deal with on duty. And even if you train, there are circumstances you can’t control, someone is better or you just have bad luck and get smacked in the head….. So punch protection (standing and on the ground), stand up, Clinch and ground skills have always been important to train for me, not only ground grappling, to come home safely. The job and the environment in Law Enforcement where I work, for me personally makes it a necessity to have at least some basic „fight“ skills, although like Bobby stated, I am at a point in my life, where primarily I train Jiu Jitsu just for fun with a nice bunch of likeminded people, for enjoyment of the art and especially to stay mentally healthy/balanced and not for Selfdefense. But sometimes, like Royce said once when I trained with him on a seminar, it’s good to put on gloves and train vs punches too… glad I learned and trained it since I have started Jiu Jitsu back then. Also I like Coach Chris Haueter‘s quote (although unfortunately I haven’t trained with him yet): „Think street, train sport, practice the art“…. |
It’s probably not true that all fights go to the ground, but it probably is accurate to say that all fights with a Gracie go to the ground. :) I would be interested to see if there are any published studies about what percentage of fights involve grappling of any kind, either in the clinch or on the ground. I used to work in a bar, and most of the fights tended to involve some type of grappling (like shoving, headlocks, clothing grabs, etc.). I suspect the clinch is far more common than an altercation where both fighters are rolling around on the floor. |
"How many fights finish with both people standing?" Believe it or not, I actually saw one once. Years ago, I was at Buffalo Wild Wings watching the UFC with some of my MMA students. Two guys at the bar started arguing loudly and shoving each other, so I pointed it out to my students. For us, this was like “field research.” :) Guy A shoved Guy B. Guy B shoved A back. Then, both of them planted their feet, lowered their heads, and started windmilling punches at each other. For at least ten full seconds these idiots threw haymakers and not a single one of them landed. They both ran out of gas at about the same time, panted a few parting insults at each other, and then went back to their respective seats at the bar. The bartender was clearly confused about whether or not to eject them, since it wasn’t entirely clear a fight had actually happened. :) |
Has anyone trained "gang" BJJ? We do it for fun occasionally. Basically you split the class into two teams, and its everyone on one team vs everyone on the other team all at once. You end up with many on 1 scenarios a lot. It can actually be harder to submit someone when you have other people also working them if its not a coordinated effort. More often than not they are just in the way of whatever maneuver you want to execute to get the sub. If the bar breaks out in a brawl, theres another reason not to go to the ground. Plus, you'll probably still get punched anyway. |
I know everyone has a different focus on what they train, depending on instructor, approach, etc…. But if you train complete game, stand up, clinch and ground, you start standing, learn how to not get taken down but to take down your opponent plus how to get up from the ground safely, if you are the one who went down…. Context is key! I am 100% sure no one would sit themselves on their butt in a bar fight, but use solid basic BJJ, if the shit hits the fan …. |
